Hardscaping – Why You Should Consider Your Trees When Building on Your Yard

Cindy Grady, regional business developer in Minnesota, talks about why you should be thinking about your trees when adding something to your yard, such as a pool, deck, patio, etc.

In this episode we cover:

• Compaction (0:42)
• Preservation (2:30)
• Right tree, right place (3:21) (12:04)
• Sweet gum tree (4:10)
• Knowing where the roots will grow (5:49)
• Building a deck around a tree (7:39)
• Buying once (10:00)
• What Cindy's job entails and how she started it (16:01)
• Some of Cindy's favorite trees (18:57)

To find your local Davey office, check out our find a local office page to search by zip code.

To learn about trees with non-invasive root systems, read our blog, Fruit, Shade and Curbside Trees with Non-Invasive Root Systems.
To learn about trees to plant and avoid planting near a structure, read our blog, The Best and Worst Trees to Plant Near a House (By Zone). 

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Have topics you'd like us to cover on the podcast? Email us at podcasts@davey.com. We want to hear from you!

Transcript

[music]

Doug: Welcome to the Davey Tree Expert Company's podcast, Talking Trees. I'm your host Doug Oster. Each week our expert arborists share advice on seasonal tree care, how to make your trees thrive, arborists favorite trees, and much much more. Tune in every Thursday to learn more, because here at the Talking Trees Podcast, we know trees are the answer. I'm joined this week by Cindy Grady. She's a regional business developer for the Davey Tree Expert Company in Minnesota. How are you, Cindy?

Cindy: I'm doing great. How are you doing?

Doug: I'm doing real good. We're talking all about hardscaping today. You're going to have to school me on this. When we're building something around the house, we certainly want to take our trees into consideration. The first thing when I think of hardscaping this time of the year is people doing construction for decks or pools or that sort of thing. That leads me to big trucks driving around my property, and that worries me around my trees. Should I be worried? [chuckles]

Cindy: You absolutely should be worried. Yes, planning and having your contractor help you create or create a preservation plan for those trees during the installation process, is going to significantly impact the quality of tree years after that install is done. You might, for instance, be putting in a pool, and the reason you chose that spot is because the oak tree right there is going to provide this glorious shade at the certain time of the day that you really enjoy that pool or what have you.

If they're stacking soil around the base of that tree out through the drip line, which is the extent of the canopy itself, they could cause significant harm to that tree later in its life. You might not see the damage right now, but it could show up in the next several years. That will definitely impact how you value that pool if that Oak tree that you love is now declining for one reason or another, or showing signs of stress and disease and all that stuff that comes with the stress tree.

Doug: You've already made me think of something in a new way. A preservation plan. That is just such a great idea. When I think about construction happening in different people's landscapes, we care so much about our trees. That preservation plan is a great idea. That would go into where they're storing materials too on the property and that sort of thing, right?

Cindy: Yes. Exactly. How they can route their equipment to get the material to and from the space where they dig, where they can't dig? It's an important piece to a successful installation.

Doug: I guess part of this too is figuring what trees are where and what you want to put in. If you're going to have a deck constructed and you have a mulberry tree there or something like that, or something else that would-- I'm trying to think of sweetgum. [chuckles] Something that's going to drop things on your deck, you want to think about that too, right?

Cindy: Indeed, you do. Maybe if you like the mulberry grown over the deck, then that's the tree to put in there for you. If you don't want that berry, you don't want to collect it and clean it, that's definitely not the tree.

Doug: You certainly don't want to walk barefoot around sweetgum ball. That's for sure.

Cindy: [laughs] Right.

Doug: Let's talk about that tree because I do have people that I talk to that really love sweetgums. Explain what we're talking about. What happens to a sweetgum that why people don't like that sweetgum tree?

Cindy: Typically, the fruit is-- Well, not typically. The fruit is pokey. It's about the size of a very, very small apple, and it's got spikes all the way around that fruit. As it hits the ground, the spikes are there ready for you to step on. Probably worse than or equal to stepping on a Lego I would say.

Doug: Oh yes. I would put it in the same-- I've stepped on both. I think the sweetgum might be a little bit more painful, but maybe we'll do a test someday. I don't know.

Cindy: [laughs] I'm going to let you do that one.

Doug: Yes, thanks. I don't know much about sweetgums. Is it a good tree? Whenever I talk to people in the tree industry, they always bring up black gum because of its beautiful fall color. Does the sweetgum work in there as a cool tree? Like I said, I had a couple people I've interviewed that love the tree, but you don't want it anywhere near your sidewalk or your deck.

Cindy: Yes. I am a fan of sweetgum, but I would not put it in my yard. It would be somewhere where there isn't going to be any activity of any kind for the foreseeable future but I love it. I think it's a great tree.

Doug: Back to hardscape. When we're thinking about our trees and changing the hardscape of our property, what else should we be thinking about? We've thought about compaction and a preservation plan. What else comes to mind for you?

Cindy: One of the bigger items that comes to mind for me is where are those roots going to grow. Are you putting in a really pretty tree right next to a patio and now the roots have to grow underneath that patio, and you've just spent 60 grand on a patio that's going to be lifted in a few years because of the root system? Or it's going to grow against a retaining wall and push the wall out or some of the retaining walls where the tree will take up so much of the moisture that now it's also drying out that concrete, and now that becomes a more brittle material. Those are things that you want to try and stay away from as well.

A good rule of thumb is, let's say you have a tree that you know has a spread of about 15 feet, try and keep that distance from your hardscape about that 15 feet as much as you can in that space to give it enough room to grow. You think of the root systems grow out well past the drip line, which once again is, the extension of the canopy. However long the canopy is, is where your roots are going to go, and then it'll extend past that. You'd like to make sure that the tiny roots that are on the outskirts will do far less damage than a tree sitting right next to the retaining wall or right underneath a patio.

Doug: I've been on decks where they've been constructed in such a way that they've been constructed around a tree.

Cindy: Yes.

Doug: Is that okay, or is that something you should really think carefully about? I always wonder as that tree gets bigger, are you going to cut more of the deck out or do you leave enough room? What do you think about that?

Cindy: I think that's going to be based on your tolerance levels. If you're willing to do that work to have your deck wrapped around that tree, much like a tree house. If you're willing to put in whatever effort it is that's going to be required at some point, then I think go for it as long as you're not allowing that tree to grow into the deck and choking that tree out by the growth of-- The growth of the tree isn't impacting the quality of the deck and the deck is then not choking out that tree. If you're willing to do the work that you're going to have to do when that tree ages and gets bigger and bigger, then go for it. I wouldn't do it. [laughs]

Doug: I wouldn't do it either. Part of it is if you love your tree and it's a big oak tree, I guess that's one way to honor it, enjoy it, be part of your landscape. As you said, it's just a matter of time in my opinion anyway. I don't know how fast a big tree like that grows. I don't know. It's still going to grow. They always keep growing and somebody's going to have to maintain that. Someone's going to have to make sure that that's not going to girdle the tree.

Cindy: Right. Two, I think you would be looking at spending considerable more money if you had to maintain that tree. When we go to prune the trees, now we have to worry about causing damage. The amount of labor intensifies, which then will increase the cost by just sheer numbers. We have to spend more time on the tree, more time on the property.

Doug: I think it's important to note that if you're doing a project like this and you're really into your trees like we are, it would be a good idea to have a certified arborist come out and give you an opinion of whatever it is you're doing when it's related to trees. Where they're going to be. Or if you're making some new hardscape around a tree and have somebody on-site to tell you like, "Hey, if you put bricks all the way out there by that maple tree, that's not going to work."

Cindy: Yes, I agree completely. I think as a landscape designer as well as as an arborist, one of my key points in making any kind of a design or making any recommendations is making sure that the long-term plan or the long-term look of that property is paramount. I don't need to give you an example, you've got it. It's pretty self-explanatory, but keeping that long-term perspective in mind is critical to a successful landscape and buying once.

Doug: Buying once.

Cindy: Right.

[laughter]

Doug: Why don't you elaborate a little bit on that? Buying only once.

[laughter]

Cindy: Well, if you've got a landscape designer who is working with you and can look at the long-term growth rate of that particular plant, let's say you have a signature ginkgo that you want to put in, that is an expensive tree, and if you're putting that in the middle of a deck, they're not keeping that long-term perspective in mind at all, in my opinion. Now, sometimes the homeowners will veto that long-term plan for an immediate gratification, but then they're usually buying plants more than once or buying trees more than once, so paying for the removal and then the replacement.

Doug: It breaks my heart to see, especially new construction, trees put in the wrong place and I don't know if they're getting a long-term plan, but I know they're going to have to replace that tree in 5 or 10 years. I've seen it so many times and it drives me nuts to [laughs] such lengths that every time I'm driving around and looking at this, I'm driving everybody in the car crazy too because I'm-

Cindy: Same. [laughs]

Doug: -upset about this. Tell me about how that works for you when you're driving by new a construction and they're putting in hardscape and the trees here and it-- or the tree's too close to the house.

Cindy: [laughs]. Well, interestingly enough I work largely with commercial clients, which brings me to HOAs and a lot of those larger developments where the builder is coming in and planting as many of these low-expense plants and then doing it very quickly because it's budgeted low and it's prioritized so low on the list, that they just need to get it in the ground, whether it's planted correctly or not or if it's in the right place or if it's even the right tree.

It is disheartening and it's frustrating to go to almost every single one of the developments and say, "We need to work on the girdling roots that you have here because it was planted incorrectly." Or, "This tree you're just going to have to eek it along until it fails because there's no treatment available for it at this point or invest in removals." It is rampant, it's throughout and it's unfortunate. When you're looking at a client's ROI and you're trying to prioritize for them and help them budget and make wise investments, it's unfortunate that that isn't being considered from the beginning of a project to when the arborist is able to come on-site.

In fact, I was working with somebody yesterday who's a project developer and convinced her-- well, actually it didn't take long to convince her that, "Can you bring us in after the LA does the design and have us assess that design even before it goes in the ground, so we can tell you that the birch does not go 5ft from the home," for instance. No salt on LA's or anything, but they run into it a lot. She was absolutely game and that helps them budget and plan and have their finances work. They don't have to put the extra effort in replacements and the financial gain and then the fight that you have to do to get that. I know I just ran on and on here but [chuckles] it's a soapbox I could easily jump on for a while.

Doug: I could jump on the same soapbox. As you were talking, in my mind, just going through all these different places that I've seen, where I've been asked to come to the property, especially ones like you're talking about. It's not valued that landscaping that they're putting in, the way they're putting it in and it's obvious to you and I [chuckles] when we arrive on site, like, "Ugh, why?" Then you've got the HOA rules where you're trying to tell somebody, "We'll put in this tree." "Oh, well, that tree isn't approved," or whatever it might be. All right, let's move on. I want to hear about you. Tell me about your current job. What does that mean? What you're doing now.

Cindy: As a regional business developer, I get to-- Boy, I'm so fortunate to be at Davey and get to do what I do. As a developer, I work with largely, like I said, commercial clients and try to develop business, build relationships, and create partnerships where the trust is established. Then we're not looking at, "Hey, defend your position or compete with Chuck in a truck." That's what I'm trying to create here in Minnesota, is that we've got a market share on a trustful relationship. From HOAs to corporate, to campuses, that's the relationship that I'm trying to build with our clients and prospects as well. I get to walk the properties. I get to walk HOAs and talk shrubs and truck talk perennials and turf diseases, tree issues. I just have a really cool job.

Doug: Tell me about your path to this job because you mentioned landscape architect, is that right? Or landscape--

Cindy: Designer.

Doug: Landscape designer.

Cindy: Yes. I actually started at TruGreen ChemLawn as a tech in the field spraying lawns. Just looking for a gig at that point. I knew I wanted to be outside and I wanted to have some task that kept me active. Through that, I fell in love with the landscape itself. Then started at the U for a bit. I wasn't quite happy because my passion was plants and trees. I wasn't quite satisfied with the amount of time that I would get for that, so I transferred.

Anyway, got into landscape horticulture and landscape design and started in the '90s as a landscape designer doing some installs for landscaping as well. Did that for a few years and then created my own design firm. Did that until the market crashed and then started in the commercial eval, commercial account management role and I've been there ever since. It's been a fun, fun ride.

Doug: Well, I told you if I got into panic mode, I would've start asking you about your favorite trees, but we're past panic mode already. We're far enough into the show where now I can have some fun and ask you some of your favorite trees that should be planted that aren't planted as often as they should. Now I know it's got to be right tree, right place. I've been schooled on that from all the people from Davey, but are there any species out there for your area that you love that aren't getting planted as much as you wish they would?

Cindy: My favorite trees-- and I don't know that I want them planted more just because I need them to be relatively pest and disease-free, so I don't want them to get more mass planted, but I do push the ginkgo. That's the one that I have planted in my yard, so that's a beaut. It's my favorite. It has minimal pest and diseases. It's got a beautiful yellow fall color and you can't go wrong with that fan-shaped leaf.

It's just glorious. Really, really cool tree.

Doug: Before we got started, you told me that one of your favorites was a larch. That's the first time that's ever been brought up. Tell me about that tree.

Cindy: It's a soft-needled evergreen that it's quite lovely. Nice little, very fine, soft leaves or needles. It turns a nice-- I don't have a thing for yellow, but it's another yellow fall color. Then it drops its needles entirely. It looks sort of dead all winter long, but it's this gorgeous, soft evergreen plant. My favorite. Let's see. Next favorite would be a redbud. Are you familiar with redbuds at all?

Doug: Yes. I wanted to ask you because I saw one the other day in a garden that was a white redbud. I never saw white before. It's funny you bring up redbuds because I was just talking to somebody, for us over here in Pittsburgh, redbuds weren't always a big thing, but they've become more and more prevalent over the years. I just love them, but I'd never seen one with white flowers before.

Cindy: That one, I was fortunate enough to have my first home with a pool, and we had a redbud nearby. I was able to watch the redbud, the kids were swimming, and you're watching the landscaping. You know how it goes. When it's a really wind-free day, and it's sort of warm, all of the heart-shaped leaves stand in line, and they move together to transpire, to do the thing that they do, and it's a very cool thing to watch. There's always, I don't know, that's a very cool thing. Also a yellow flower, or yellow fall color. I guess I do have something for yellow. [laughs]

Doug: You're obviously very much a tree person, because instead of watching the kids in the pool.

Cindy: Oh God, yes, right? I do that all the time. [laughs]

Doug: You're watching your redbud turn around. Cindy, this was so much fun. Thank you for your time and information. This was a blast, and I'm sure we'll talk again soon.

Cindy: Thank you, Doug. It was fun. I appreciate your time.

Doug: Boy, that really was a lot of fun, wasn't it? Next week, it's all about getting your trees ready for summer, and that means the possibility of storms. Tune in every Thursday to the Talking Trees Podcast from the Davie Tree Expert Company. I'm your host, Doug Oster. I'd love it if you would subscribe to the podcast. Where else are you going to have this fun, right? As always, we like to remind you, on the Talking Trees Podcast, trees are the answer. [music]

[00:23:15] [END OF AUDIO]